Create a Sense of Belonging With Jackye Clayton


One of many explanation why hiring individuals from underrepresented teams as the primary stage is mistaken is as a result of you may have individuals from underrepresented teams which can be there. Ask them about their experiences. What do they might they wish to see? What do they assume are lacking? As a result of they’re having the conversations whether or not you realize it or not. Possibly they haven’t felt open to share that data with you. However that is also essential to take account internally of the place do we have to begin? So you’ll be able to have construct packages to make it possible for individuals are feeling welcome and seeing if there may be any gaps.


Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive office chief. Be part of host Jessica Miller-Merrell, founding father of, as she sits down and will get to the underside of tendencies, instruments, and case research for the enterprise chief, HR, and recruiting skilled who’s uninterested in the established order. Now right here’s Jessica with this episode of Workology.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:01:01.59] This podcast is a part of the Workology Podcast that’s targeted on DEI and HR. Range, fairness, inclusion are usually not new concepts in HR or company arenas, however in current months, the significance and significance of DEI within the office has gotten leaders all through company to begin enthusiastic about what doing the best factor in our neighborhood appears like. For many people in HR, this implies we’re not taking DEI initiatives to stakeholders. These stakeholders are coming to us on the lookout for solutions, and we have to be prepared to reply. This podcast is powered by Ace the HR Examination  and Upskill HR. These are two programs that I supply for HR certification prep and recertification for HR leaders. Go to Be Earlier than I introduce our podcast visitor for at this time, I do wish to hear from you. Textual content the phrase “PODCAST” to 512-548-3005, ask questions, go away feedback, and make strategies for future company. That is my neighborhood textual content quantity and I need your suggestions. Immediately I’m joined by Jackye Clayton. She’s the Vice President of Expertise Acquisition and  DEIB at Textio. Jackie is an acclaimed thought chief and inspirational speaker on recruiting and DEI matters. In her position because the VP of Expertise Acquisition and DEI, she leads all associated work at Textio, supplies important experience to clients and serves as a number one voice within the merchandise Textio creates for the broader ecosystem. Jackye has been named one of many 9 Most Highly effective Ladies in Enterprise You Ought to Know by SDHR Consulting. She’s one in all 15 Ladies in HR Tech to Comply with by VidCruiter, and one of many High Recruitment Thought Leaders that you could observe by interviewMocha Journal. She’s additionally among the many High 100 checklist of Human Assets Influencers by Human Useful resource Government Journal. Jackye was beforehand an editor for RecruitingDaily, and at present co-hosts a well-liked DEI podcast, Inclusive AF. Jackye, welcome to the Workolgy Podcast.

Jackye Clayton: [00:03:08.22] Hello, I’m completely happy to be right here.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:03:10.59] I’m so pleased with you. You recognize, we’ve recognized one another for a very long time. Sure, however then I learn your, your, your intro and I’m like, hey!

Jackye Clayton: [00:03:20.52] Proper? On the moon!

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:03:22.26] On the moon! Effectively, I’ve talked to quite a lot of D&I leaders, DEI leaders, DEIA leaders. And I like that you just’re utilizing DEIB. For people who don’t know what the B stands for, are you able to speak about that and why it’s so essential?

Jackye Clayton: [00:03:39.93] Sure, the B stands for belonging. And, you realize, as we undergo this journey, one of many challenges and a part of the explanation why there’s been such an emphasis on DEIB is inviting individuals who could also be, traditionally have been overlooked. And so there’s potential there for that individual to turn out to be othered after which not really feel snug. Possibly they don’t have a tradition of inclusion. And so it’s like, okay, I’ve been included, however do I really feel like I belong? So the instance that you just hear loads, there’s a quote that comes out from the lady working variety at Netflix. I can’t keep in mind her identify proper now, however the quote principally says, “Range is being requested to the dance and inclusion is being requested to bounce.” And belonging means there’s a pool desk within the nook simply in case dancing isn’t even a factor, like, you wish to do. Ensuring that they ask you what sort of songs you’d like on the playlist and ensuring they’ve gluten-free waffles, you realize, so I really feel like I truly belong right here. And so with that, we actually sort of concentrate on ensuring that we’ve got a psychologically secure atmosphere and assist our managers hold that in thoughts as they’re creating packages.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:04:54.46] I like that. And I feel it’s essential to say that you just may really feel secure at work. And I imply, like me and then you definitely’re listening, however your workers, sure people, managers, workers, they may not. So simply since you really feel alright about it doesn’t imply that any person else feels okay and included, like, they belong.

Jackye Clayton: [00:05:14.59] That’s proper. And along with that, there’s office trauma that occurs that you could have not ignored otherwise you go alongside the way in which. And there’s issues which have occurred in your life at work that for no matter motive, possibly there wasn’t a good distribution of energy, or possibly at the start of your profession the place you’re not likely positive what to do as a result of our lives are tied to work, proper? It’s how we become profitable. It determines on, on our households, the place we stay, the place our kids go to highschool, you realize, all of some of these issues. And so what occurs, even when you may have a, a company that focuses on DEIB, you’ll be able to nonetheless deliver a few of that trauma with you that you just keep in mind from instances previous. And so it’s essential to acknowledge you might be doing all the steps appropriately. You’re treating individuals the identical method you’d deal with everybody else. However to me, on the receiving finish, it feels very completely different to me due to my experiences. We’re all a product of our varied experiences, and so typically with that we’ve got to provide a pleasant reminder that we’re not all the identical. We wish to hold these issues into consideration in order that we will get to the enterprise of doing our jobs with out pointless distractions, if that is sensible.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:06:34.69] It does. So let’s speak about possibly some examples of what belonging appears like in apply at work.

Jackye Clayton: [00:06:42.19] Positive. So one of many issues that we do is we’ve got therapeutic circles. And therapeutic circles, it permits individuals to share ideas which can be on their thoughts with out debate. It’s not up for dialogue, it’s not a part of coverage. However giving individuals an opportunity to share their, their ideas is useful in order that they know that they’ve a voice and that they’re being heard. The opposite half is we’ve got like at Textio, we’ve got an inclusion council in order that we will make it possible for the insurance policies and packages which can be in place, individuals are participating there, that individuals are taking part and seeing. And we’ve got somebody from each division as part of this inclusion council to say what has been the impression. In order that we seen, are individuals taking part extra? Do that folks really feel like they belong? And what strategies do we’ve got? It’s additionally ensuring that you just’re doing stock of the individuals which can be in your workforce. Is it a spot the place somebody who’s completely different can really feel like they, they belong and holding individuals accountable for these efforts? And, you realize, it’s difficult as a result of actually we’re seeing the shift the place HR can also be liable for firm tradition. Lots of instances together with the one who’s liable for DEI, and we all know that tradition can shift with each rent. And so you actually have to remain on high of it and just be sure you’re paying consideration earlier than, we wish to do it proactively, so earlier than one thing occurs that we’ve got to react to, we wish to take a look at it from a proactive standpoint.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:08:22.71] For context, how huge is Textio’s? What’s the worker dimension?

Jackye Clayton: [00:08:27.54] Textio, I feel we’re at 127 proper now. So we’re small and that’s essential to note. However what’s additionally nice for individuals to know is that it is a directive that got here from the highest of the group and why I’m there, not one thing that occurred in the midst of it. It’s, it’s one thing that’s been, and it’s scary, proper? It’s a scary job. I didn’t understand it was scary till I began speaking out within the subject. And individuals are like, oh, so that you’re liable for inclusion in an organization that helps different organizations discover inclusion? And I’m like, Oh, I obtained a cramp. I’m like, I didn’t even take into consideration that earlier than I came to visit as a result of it’s been part of my world for such a very long time. However yeah, so it provides me a specific amount of autonomy to have the ability to put specifically packages for positive.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:09:19.49] Effectively, I feel it’s essential to speak about how massive the corporate is, as a result of typically I feel individuals assume, oh, we’re a small firm, we solely have 50 workers. Like we don’t have the individuals energy or a have to, to have this stuff like an inclusion council in place. But it surely’s by no means too early to begin constructing in inclusion and serving to individuals really feel like they belong.

Jackye Clayton: [00:09:43.40] Sure. And it’s very useful if you end up a smaller firm earlier than going to an ERG or a distinct group, which is an entire one other podcast all to itself. However you continue to wish to make it possible for individuals belong and also you wish to just be sure you’re fostering that progress. It’s a vital enterprise talent now, and folks wish to these packages of seeing what you’re doing of longevity. And it’s a retention challenge at this level. And it’s for everybody, for everybody of each background, seeking to see how individuals are being handled and is it an equitable area, even when they’re a member of a majority group, nonetheless wish to make it possible for they’re working for a corporation that embraces variety and is treating individuals in an equitable method.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:33.26] So that you’ve been within the recruiting area for, for 20+ years?

Jackye Clayton: [00:10:38.24] Sure.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:39.80] An extended-ass time.

Jackye Clayton: [00:10:40.82] Have a look at the grey, dude. I didn’t begin that method.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:45.05] Are you able to speak about how you bought began after which why you have been drawn into DEI as a pacesetter?

Jackye Clayton: [00:10:51.71] Sure. So I actually went in throughout recruiting. I began company recruiting. On the time, I had spent 4 years not working, caring for my youngsters and elevating my youngsters. And through that point, no lie. I do know that is going to sound odd, however throughout that point I grew to become a Tupperware woman, proper? I had to return to work and I used to be like, I used to be a enterprise analyst, a technical enterprise analyst earlier than. And I used to be like, I don’t know something that’s occurred on with expertise. I’ve simply been altering diapers and chasing youngsters. And I began promoting Tupperware and I used to be like, I’m going to place Tupperware on my resume. And so they actually introduced me in as a result of my resume, after all, that is pre-ATS and pre-LinkedIn and pre-online, however I had gross sales and I had expertise and in order that’s what they have been on the lookout for to search out recruiters, expertise recruiters. However throughout that point and beginning to take part in organizations for expertise acquisition and, in HR, there was a necessity to search out candidates from underrepresented teams and the methodologies that folks have been utilizing meant that I wasn’t going to be discovered. And I believed I used to be fairly nice, proper? So I used to be like, wait, I need to have the ability to be discovered. I wish to attempt to make strategies and analysis.

Jackye Clayton: [00:12:15.17] And I began writing for SourceCon. And what was fascinating is that I used to be requested to write down about variety, however not write about girls or individuals of shade, which I used to be like, Oh, okay, I’ll get proper again. I needed to go do analysis as a result of I used to be like, that’s all I learn about. And it actually introduced in my horizons and I spotted how a lot I didn’t know. And I, on the time, once we have been beginning to get to doing on-line recruiting or on-line insurance policies, there was an enormous push of sharing that data. And so I simply wished to share that data and began realizing a few of the struggles and with that, began working in that method with quite a lot of startups writing about HR expertise and seeing the gaps of how this was not made to search out everybody and simply grew to become keen about discovering methods to make that extra equitable. And so it sort of came to visit. So it’s at all times been dotted line to HR. All the time had that relationship. I’ve labored in recruitment beneath company and the place it was part of HR and now the place we report on to the CEO, I report back to the CEO and so they report back to me as a dotted line partnership with human assets.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:13:33.82] That was going to be my subsequent query, as a result of I feel that quite a lot of instances individuals simply put HR, like variety beneath HR and there’s nothing mistaken with it. But when, I really feel like if you happen to’re going to be critical about variety, fairness, inclusion, and belonging, it’s best to report on to the CEO and be a member of the chief management workforce.

Jackye Clayton: [00:13:56.44] Thanks for saying that. I imply, it’s a enterprise initiative and folks have to know there’s a distinction if you’re a ardour, like a private ardour exterior of labor versus the enterprise, to creating positive that we’re, we’re in a position to proceed to conduct the enterprise, which suggests we’ve got to align these DEIB objectives with the enterprise objectives. And we have to take a look at it realistically, like what expertise goes to assist us to have the best alternatives to have individuals from underrepresented teams. What states ought to we recruit in and what are, after which we’ve got to associate with HR as a result of what are the foundations inside the varied states through which we rent? There’s varied issues [00:14:39.82] with. [00:14:40.00] There’s all types of nuances. And we associate, particularly with our HR enterprise associate with the management workforce, the place we fulfill a sure hole of teaching and coaching with our leaders however concentrate on that side and so they can concentrate on a few of the different features of profession mapping and all of these items. So we actually work hand in hand collectively on quite a lot of these features, however I feel some individuals simply default, you’re employed with people, so variety should fall beneath HR. And there’s a sure alternative. You recognize, there’s issues that we be taught as we’ve gone by way of the way in which and naturally, we’ve all heard of circumstances and various things which have gone on in that area. However as we’ve turn out to be extra conscious and it’s tied to these enterprise wants, it must be tied to a pacesetter that may implement and make these modifications and pay attention to the significance. And in order that’s why you want that direct line of communication.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:15:38.62] I feel that’s the largest problem. We’ve employed all these DEI people to steer the variety efforts for our organizations, however as a result of they don’t have a direct line to the chief workforce, they aren’t in a position to speak in regards to the enterprise impression or the funds that they want or the individuals to have the ability to try this. And so I see quite a lot of actually nice individuals that in 2020, 2021 moved into DEI roles after which have left and moved elsewhere as a result of it was an answer due to, it was a response to one thing that was within the information. Black Lives Matter and George Floyd, which I completely, we would have liked to have, we have to have these individuals within the organizations. But when they don’t report back to the individual with the funds, the purse strings, and tie it to a enterprise final result, it’s not going to actually be utilized.

Jackye Clayton: [00:16:33.70] That’s proper. And I feel the frustration is as a result of quite a lot of organizations gave that position to the one who gave the impression to be most passionate into the group. And simply because you’re a member of an underrepresented group doesn’t make you an professional about having to cope with the DEIB inside a company. Such as you don’t see lots of people which can be cooks which can be additionally eating regimen specialists, proper? Like, yeah, I’m keen about meals. I need individuals to be completely happy. That doesn’t imply I, my meals are going to assist individuals drop extra pounds per se simply because I’m in that position. And so what occurs is you get excited and if you happen to haven’t accomplished it from that enterprise facet, you get excited, however then you definitely get disillusioned and also you haven’t accomplished this work and understood why is that this a difficulty within the first place? And it’s so essential to have the ability to, such as you’re saying, is have that direct line and see what the general impression goes to be. And for instance. We’re wanting, we have been on the lookout for an HRIS earlier this 12 months and the members of our workforce have been a part of that course of and looking out and so they, you’d be shocked on what number of or possibly not, possibly not you, however any person listening goes to be shocked to know that there are HRIS techniques and it stated lady, man or x the place the alternatives, and we have been like, oh, we can’t use this. We are able to’t use that. It isn’t inclusive. There’s no reporting. We are able to’t take a look at the intersectionality, you realize, like our democrat, like, we will’t use that. And that got here purely from a partnership alongside and the understanding earlier than making a few of these decisions. However you’re proper, it does take funds, it does take help. And it’s quite a lot of work. And it’s unlucky that folks can’t, the identical those who ask for these packages to be in place are the identical those who get in the way in which of having the ability to transfer ahead.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:18:29.90] HRIS techniques that should not have these choices, take observe since you’re not going to get enterprise if you happen to aren’t considering from an inclusive viewpoint. And that reporting is so essential.

Jackye Clayton: [00:18:43.07] It’s completely key. I imply, we interviewed somebody final week who, we’ve got a spot so that you can enter your pronouns, and so they have been like, It’s the primary time anybody has requested me my pronouns earlier than I went to the interview course of. And everybody, nobody has misgendered me by way of this complete course of and so they wished to work with us for that motive alone. I imply, they went by way of every part else. However there’s, and it doesn’t take loads. It doesn’t take loads.

Break: [00:19:12.83] Let’s take a reset. That is Jessica Miller-Merrell, and you might be listening to the Workology Podcast powered by Ace the HR Examination and Upskill HR. Go to Be to be taught extra about our programs for skilled growth and HR certification. Immediately we’re speaking with Jackye Clayton, Vice President of Expertise Acquisition and DEIB at Textio. Earlier than we get again, I wish to hear from you. Shoot me a textual content. Textual content “PODCAST” to 512-548-3005. Ask me questions, go away feedback, and make strategies for future company. That is my neighborhood textual content quantity and I wish to hear from you.

Break: [00:19:51.71] Private {and professional} growth is important for profitable HR leaders. Be part of Upskill HR to entry life coaching, neighborhood, and over 100 on-demand programs for the dynamic chief. HR recert credit out there. Go to for extra.


Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:20:08.07] So that you’ve talked about one factor which is asking pronouns throughout the hiring course of to be extra inclusive. What are some steps or different ways in which you as a TA or an HR chief, can take to make sure that candidates really feel snug and extra included within the hiring course of?

Jackye Clayton: [00:20:28.44] Sure. So a type of issues is we give our candidates the questions that we’re going to ask, the issues that they need to have the ability to put together for as a result of we wish candidates to return and present their greatest selves. We don’t wish to quiz them on their potential to deal with stress and nervousness throughout the interview course of. We’ve began asking prematurely, do they want shut captions on throughout the interview course of? Do, you realize, what sort of software program have they got in order that we will make it possible for we’re being equitable, letting them learn about the right way to activate accessibility in Zoom? As a result of for some individuals it is likely to be their first expertise. Possibly they’ve solely used Groups or another sort of product in order that it may be accessible. And we additionally introduce ourselves with our, our pronouns and we do a spherical robin and it has turn out to be a part of our tradition. And we additionally ask candidates in the event that they’d wish to apply interviewing earlier than they go on to the interview course of to make it possible for particularly individuals which can be neurodiverse or possibly they wish to check out the software program that we give these choices as nicely earlier than. And it’s humorous as a result of God bless Glassdoor, it’s humorous to see the change the place individuals are like, I didn’t get the job, but it surely was a optimistic interview expertise. And I’m like, Oh, thank goodness. We’ve been working actually, actually arduous on that to make it possible for individuals really feel like they belong and take the burden off of the candidate and put the onus on ourselves.

Jackye Clayton: [00:22:02.52] A number of individuals have an lodging assertion on their job posts or on their profession pages that claims, when you have an issue, tell us. Or they could say, We encourage individuals from underrepresented communities to use, however they don’t say from varied communities, whether or not or not it’s, you realize, if, in the event that they’re, with a incapacity, we take a look at all talents we wish to rent from all talents, all communities, simply issues like that, and assist individuals know that we’ve paid consideration to these issues so that folks don’t must really feel like they must out themselves throughout the interview course of. I like closed captions. It simply is like I do on a regular basis. However I don’t know, I assume it’s due to, once I began movies at work, I’m simply used to having closed captions within the background. And so individuals choose that than having to say, you realize, I’m somewhat bit listening to impaired or I exploit an ocular some sort of factor to assist me with listening to, really feel uncomfortable sharing as a result of traditionally lots of people have been discriminated due to these issues. So we simply supply it to everybody. And so it actually has helped in that course of, ensuring that folks really feel like they’ll belong.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:23:20.49] I’ve used the Zoom closed captioning function we interviewed on the podcast, Meryl Evans who’s deaf and it was a terrific expertise. I used to be somewhat nervous. We examined it out beforehand, but it surely was very easy to make use of. And he or she additionally reads lips, however you’ll be able to’t depend that everybody goes to be lip reader.

Jackye Clayton: [00:23:42.60] Proper.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:23:43.11] And it was, it was improbable. We had a terrific dialog. It wasn’t awkward or bizarre in any respect. It was a terrific, it was nice. I beloved it.

Jackye Clayton: [00:23:52.86] Sure. Yeah. I imply, and such as you stated, you might simply flip it on. And it’s crucial for, we’re beginning to take a look at another issues for those that are visually impaired in order that we will have it in place in order that when individuals have lodging, we have already got a listing of the lodging we’ve got in home, if it’s something exterior of that. However then we additionally apply in order that, as a result of that is the place bias slips in, proper? I’ll always remember a, I had an interview with a candidate that was listening to impaired and so they didn’t inform the hiring supervisor that that they had an individual who was a translator. That they had somebody who did signal language. They didn’t learn lips, and they also talked for that individual. However the one who was deaf additionally had noise, made noises, and the hiring supervisor was like, I can’t do that. PS: Sure, you’ll be able to. And quantity two, it’s the legislation. Like, baffled. However that’s what their bias got here in. And it was unconscious as a result of they hadn’t studied it, didn’t perceive this was their first expertise. And so we wish to make it possible for all of that is in order that we will simply do our jobs, like I stated, with out distraction. And so the extra that we will expose to numerous cultures and that’s the great thing about variety, fairness, inclusion, and belonging. Extra publicity that we’ve got, the higher we might be ready, conscious of our unconscious bias, and permit individuals to have the ability to then be their greatest selves at work.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:25:25.23] I like it. And I like, I like that you just’re doing all this. One of many issues that Meryl additionally stated within the interview, and I believed this was a extremely nice suggestion will not be everybody can reply the telephone, particularly if you’re deaf or listening to impaired. So having an choice that claims, how do you like to speak?

Jackye Clayton: [00:25:43.62] Sure.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:25:44.07] And it was just a bit dropdown or a field that stated, I wish to speak by way of textual content. I feel that these issues, asking pronouns, speaking about what sort of lodging you want, having an electronic mail that truly HR can obtain. So if any person wants an lodging, they’ll ask for that earlier than the interview. These are all small issues that we will do to, to make individuals really feel extra welcome and inclusive, which is what we ought to be doing.

Jackye Clayton: [00:26:11.01] Sure.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:26:11.70] I wish to return only a bit and speak about pronouns as a result of we talked about them somewhat bit. However why is supporting gender-inclusive pronouns so essential?

Jackye Clayton: [00:26:23.82] An excellent query. One of many issues that’s essential, and I ought to, as a disclaimer, share that I’m the guardian of a trans individual, not their non-binary and their pronouns are they/them. It’s essential as a result of once more, we’re normalizing that we share the pronouns and never being assumptive. One other factor that’s very easy is to make it possible for we confer with everybody as they/them till they tell us what their pronouns are. As a result of once more, you don’t wish to inflict further trauma on an individual by making them must out themselves. Like this is the reason it’s all about security and we’ve got to make it possible for we’re accommodating for that. So we share it so that folks really feel snug sharing and we don’t ask individuals. In the event that they wish to share their pronouns, they are going to. In the event that they don’t, they don’t must. But it surely has turn out to be coverage internally. And it’s additionally so we don’t misgender individuals. Like, simply as a lot as I’ll admit, like there was a lady we have been interviewing named Jennifer, and I stated Jenny out of nowhere. And so they have been like, It’s Jennifer. And I’ve like, wished to love, curl right into a ball and die. However I wouldn’t name any person by another identify, proper? That I simply made up, proper? Like, let’s attempt to get to know the entire individual and this simply takes it out in order that we’re sharing that early on and folks have that understanding earlier than it turns into uncomfortable. We don’t wish to trigger any uncomfortable conditions for anybody.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:28:04.35] I’ve seen that whereas LinkedIn has an choice so that you can share your pronouns and I’ve gotten a number of messages the place I’ve shared mine and it’s like I don’t, I don’t wish to be linked to anybody who does X that’s keen to share. And I’m like, Thanks for eliminating your self from my area, proper? As a result of I don’t wish to be surrounded by individuals who aren’t keen to, to share and inquire. I simply need individuals to really feel snug. And I feel that’s the reason we ask.

Jackye Clayton: [00:28:40.56] And may you think about, like, so then you definitely go and also you begin your first day after which somebody decides for you. It’s essential to say individuals say, What are your most well-liked pronouns? No, they’re not most well-liked like my pronouns are she/her. You don’t get to say, Effectively, I do know they’re she/her, however I’m going to make use of e/his. What? No, you don’t, you don’t get to do this. And we, it’s humorous how we promote, we wish individuals to deliver their complete selves to work, however then individuals strive to remove by saying, Oh, however we don’t do pronouns. Effectively, then I can’t deliver my complete self to work if that’s the case.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:29:18.76] One factor that, and we talked about this on the prep name that my daughter Riley did lately when she did like a pronoun quiz and he or she simply requested a sequence of questions of like how I wish to be referred, what my pronouns have been. After which she requested issues like, How do I wish to be complimented? Is good-looking acceptable? Is it stunning? And these are all phrases or After which she was like, Mrs., Ms., Miss, Mr., what are combine? What are my preferences? And it, it was, it was good to listen to. And in addition it was shocking, like, I’ll obtain all compliments in the event that they’re masculine or female, female. Don’t name me ma’am or Mrs., I don’t know. But it surely was, it was I feel it was a pleasant exercise. It additionally, like, that is one thing that’s essential to Riley, so it’s essential to me and it additionally helps me sort of see into the way forward for what the office goes to be like. I imply, you may have, you may have youngsters which can be within the workforce.

Jackye Clayton: [00:30:25.30] Sure.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:30:25.75] And my daughter will probably be quickly. So that is going to be a traditional request and expectation.

Jackye Clayton: [00:30:34.63] That’s proper. And it’s so essential that, once more, I’ve my oldest has been misgendered. And like I stated, it was, they couldn’t do their job that day, proper? They have been damage and so they felt unsafe and, you realize, begin giving individuals the facet eye and seeing on how they have been being, being handled. And, and so it simply, is, it’s simply good apply.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:31:08.09] What errors do you see firms make in terms of DEI? Possibly like the most typical or possibly the one which drives you the craziest?

Jackye Clayton: [00:31:17.12] I feel the very first thing that drives me loopy is that they’ll say, Oh, we have to have extra girls and folks of shade, and so they simply begin leaping in and with out getting ready the group, letting individuals know that that is what’s taking place, the expectations. Like, like we’re speaking about now, the expectation is to share your pronouns. The expectation is that we make lodging. The expectation is that this stuff are going to occur. That drives me loopy. The opposite factor will not be having a definition or understanding of the demographics of the group. I chortle at my very own group. We’ve an govt workforce that could be a majority girls. And so for us, once we’re wanting on the definition of variety and inclusion, it’s like we actually want so as to add extra males to our govt workforce as quickly as we will as a result of there’s voices which can be lacking. And I feel that folks don’t take a look at possibly you do have gaps. In order that, that piece actually makes me go bananas. And one thing else that occurs is that we don’t maintain individuals accountable to these numbers. One thing that we’ve modified internally is ensuring that there’s an govt. After all, once more, we’re 122 individuals, however ensuring that there’s an govt that’s conscious of the hires which can be being made. And we began breaking down variety, fairness, and inclusion by division quite than the entire group. Whenever you take a look at the entire group, it appears nice. However then if you take a look at it from a departmental standpoint, there are some which can be oversaturated in a single group and there are voices which can be lacking. And in order that drives me to the cocktails as nicely.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:33:07.07] And that’s why, that’s why we ask. I imply, so let’s shift over to possibly greatest recommendation. So greatest recommendation for HR professionals who wish to do extra work within the DEI area or deliver new initiatives to their firms. The place do they begin?

Jackye Clayton: [00:33:24.41] Very first thing is to begin at dwelling, proper? Handle your individual home. One of many explanation why hiring individuals from underrepresented teams as the primary stage is mistaken is as a result of you may have individuals from underrepresented teams which can be there. Ask them about their experiences. What do they, would they wish to see? What do they assume are lacking? Since you, as a result of they’re having the conversations, whether or not you realize it or not. Possibly they haven’t felt open to share that data with you. But it surely’s is also essential to take account internally of the place do we have to begin so you’ll be able to have construct packages to make it possible for individuals are feeling welcome and seeing if there may be any gaps. The opposite half is to take a look at your job descriptions and ensuring that you’re referring, utilizing they/them as an alternative of creating the assumptions in your writing and ensuring that there isn’t any detractors in your job descriptions, ensuring that you just’re solely requiring the items which can be, actually must be required, and that you just’re open to individuals from different communities inside these roles. After which, after all, letting individuals know within the job descriptions that that is one thing that’s essential to the group.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:34:37.28] Effectively, Jackye, as at all times, thanks to your time chatting with us. It’s at all times good to catch up, even when it’s a podcast the place you’re being recorded. However, nicely, we have to meet up quickly. The place can individuals go to attach extra with you, the podcast, and all of the issues?

Jackye Clayton: [00:34:53.69] Sure, so Inclusive AF, you could find it in your favourite place to take heed to podcasts. I feel we’re the one one referred to as Inclusive AF. And you may at all times discover me, I spell my identify somewhat completely different. It’s Jackye Clayton, and I’m Jackye Clayton on LinkedIn and Twitter and I’m on LinkedIn and Twitter on a regular basis, so.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:35:17.84] We’ll hyperlink to Inclusive AF after which your LinkedIn and your Twitter on, on the present notes. So if you happen to simply wish to go to and scroll on over to Jackye’s interview, you may get all of the issues. However thanks once more. It was a pleasure.

Jackye Clayton: [00:35:32.51] You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

Closing: [00:35:34.88] Conversations about variety, fairness, and inclusion are so essential and we have to have extra of them as a result of these conversations don’t simply spark, however they ignite change. As HR leaders, we will help our organizations with assets that open up DEI conversations and initiatives in a method that makes area for workers to deliver their complete selves to work, whereas additionally setting an instance of what doing the best factor appears like. I respect Jackye as a buddy, as an professional, and her experience and her time. So thanks, Jackye. Loved speaking to you at this time on the podcast. And I wish to thanks for becoming a member of the Workology Podcast powered by Upskill HR and Ace the HR Examination. This podcast is for the disruptive office chief who’s uninterested in the established order. Let’s change work collectively. My identify is Jessica Miller-Merrell. Thanks for listening to the Workology Podcast. Share your opinions, ideas, strategies by texting me. Textual content the phrase “PODCAST” to 512-548-3005. You may ask me questions, go away strategies, and let me know who you wish to be on this podcast as a visitor. Till subsequent time you’ll be able to go to to take heed to all our earlier podcast episodes. I hope that you haven’t only a good day, however a terrific day. See you quickly.

Join with Jackye Clayton.



– Jackye Clayton on LinkedIn

– Jackye on Twitter

– Inclusive AF Podcast

– Episode 378: Belief and Understanding within the Incapacity Disclosure Dialog With Albert Kim

– Episode 374: Digital Fairness at Work and in Life With Invoice Curtis-Davidson and Chris Wooden

– Episode 369: Making the Office Accessible Each for Workers and Contractors With Meryl Evans

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